#HFGather: Writing for and Writing WITH Kids

Our stories help kids see themselves in the world—and if we’re lucky, spark a lifelong love of reading. For many stories, the love of reading ignites another skill—writing! In many classrooms, books serve to nurture readers and young writers. Panelists Diana Ma and Valerie Bolling, using their educational backgrounds, have crafted pedagogical books about writing and empowering students. The two joined moderator Alison Green Myers to share ways that their work as educators influences their work as children’s book writers.

If you missed the live Gather, you can watch it here.
Please note: closed captions are being added to the video below. When they are finished, you can see them by hovering over the bottom of the video and choosing the “CC” icon.

Resources from the #HF Gather:

• Diana Ma’s website
• Valerie Bolling’s website
• Stenhouse Books submission guidelines
• Routledge Publishing Guidelines
• Valerie’s book: Goal Setting in the Writing Classroom
• Diana Ma’s book: Anti-Oppressive Universal Design for Teachers

Four Principles from Diana Ma:

• Multiplicity
• Flexible design
• Equity
• Humanizing pedagogy

Listen to a Podcast Version of the Gather:

Full Transcript

George Brown:
So, why don’t I get rolling, and then, uh, by the time everyone has come in, we’ll be ready for the main event. Good evening, everybody. My name is George Brown, I’m the Executive Director of the Highlights Foundation.I’m thrilled that you’re joining this evening. Our mission is to positively impact children by amplifying the voices of storytellers, and this evening we have a special treat with Diana and Valerie talking to us not only about what it means to write, through their writing lives, but also writing for children, and how the two of those pieces and writing for children, and writing for yourself, help inform one and then the other.

Please join us this evening in an aspect of kindness and professionalism and respect as we listen and learn and discuss and collaborate together. I hope you’ll enjoy this show, I hope you’ll think about us, you’ll follow us on social media, you’ll tell all your friends what a great presentation, what a great discussion we’ve had this evening. Uh, we love your support. We are a 501c3 nonprofit, and certainly tell us what we’re doing right and what we can do better. With all of that, that is kind of the nuts and bolts of how we roll.

Uh, otherwise, I would like to welcome Diana Ma and Valerie Bolling, writing for kids, writing with kids, and Alison Green Myers, our program director, is here to facilitate the conversation. Diana…Valerie, welcome. Alison, will you please take us on this journey?

Alison Green Myers:
Well, I’d love to! Thanks so much, George. I’m so happy to be here. You know, just as George said, another great Gather, this one is definitely near and dear to my heart. Um, I’m thrilled to be here. The, the thought of talking with educators who are also writers is just the core to who I am, and I know so many people in the chat feel the same way. I think the work that Diana and Valerie are doing is just so important. I think there was something about the topic that really connected with people in our community, because, you know, um, when you have that passion of working with kids and you see the power of stories in kids’ hands, you think: hmm, you know, you know, maybe I can do that. Maybe this can be a part of my journey, too.

So, that’s really where I’d love to start tonight. Um, I’d love to start with a little bit about your backgrounds in education, and, um, see how it has, or maybe hasn’t influenced your writing for kids. You’re both very actively writing for kids and teens and you have a background in education. So, Diana, do you want to start us off? What is your background in education, and how has it impacted your writing for kids?

Diana Ma:
Sure. So my background in education is a little bit different, because for the past — oh, I have to think back to how long it’s been. It’s been over 25 years, I’ve taught in community college. Where it is, um, mostly, um, young people, but we do get a lot of high school students, Running Start students, so I work with teens a lot. And before that, I did teach high school for a year, and I’ve also worked in elementary schools. So, that’s basically my experience as an educator.

And I’m always, always thinking about kits when I write. I was just on a panel, um, with someone who talked about writing ABOUT kids, but it was really clear that her focus was not writing FOR kids. And I thought that was interesting, because my immediate response was “I write for kids.” Um, I want to write stories where kids can see themselves, can see themselves fully representative and imagine a world where they are free to be who they are.

Alison Green Myers:
I love that. Thank you so much for sharing. Valerie, I know that your background in education is a little bit different from what Diana just shared. Can you talk with us a little bit? I also love seeing in the chat, people are sharing if they have a background in education as well, and kind of how that’s gone into, um, their writing, so…What can you share with us, Valerie?

Valerie Bolling:
Sure, so a little bit about just my background in education. Uh, first of all, I remember claiming in second grade that I would be a teacher. My teacher, Mrs. Barracks, was asking each of us what we wanted to be when we grew up. And that’s what I said, and the other part of the story is she gave me a red pencil. And so, after that, everyone said they wanted to be a teacher so they could get a red pencil, and she did hand one to everyone who said they wanted to be a teacher, so that’s kind of funny.

Um, I’ve taught for 30 years, and as I say, I’m still teaching, because it’s just, it’s who I am, and certainly when I’m around children, or I go into schools in my capacity as author, I’m teaching, uh, but officially, I taught 30 years in the same school district. And I taught grades in elementary 2, 4, and. Then I taught 8th grade English for 5 years, um, the elementary school was 12, and the last 13 years, I served as an instructional coach, working with middle and high school teachers. So, I’ve really been around, um, children of all ages, and I remember these experiences when I write for children, because I think about what are the things that they enjoyed… Uh, what are the things that they might need? Maybe there’s a book that’s not really out there about a certain experience, or, as Diana talked about, representation. I definitely, when I, you know, started my career over 30 years ago, I didn’t have many books in the classroom that featured, um, you know, kids of color.

And so, even though some of the books I write could feature, you know, children from any background, like Together We Ride, I’m very intentional in having a publisher know that I expect these books to be, you know, feature the children who look like me, um, illustrators who look like me, and then, of course, I have, you know, more multicultural books as well that feature a lot, feature and celebrate oeople from diverse backgrounds. So I think, um, again, as I’m thinking about writing for children, I’m also thinking about, I know how smart children are, and I think sometimes people think people or even writers think they have to explain things, or they have to be didactic, or whatever, and kids will get it.

Trust them, they will get it, they’re smart, and so I also want to write stories that engage them and that will make them think, and also just enjoy a good read.

Alison:
I love that, and you do, I, I, I think it’s, it’s so, it’s interesting to hear you talk about your educational journey, because, obviously, when we first met, I knew you were an educator, you were actively, you know, still teaching, even though I think every educator is like, “and I’m still teaching,” or my kids, they’re not talking about their, you know, they’re talking about their classroom kids, but, um, and still teaching, because I do think it becomes, like, a complete part of you. It’s just really who you are. So, I love hearing you talking about that journey.

Because I know you so much through your writing journey, and that you have, you know, board books, and early readers, and fiction, and nonfiction picture books. So, you had and have, like, um… a lot of books, and you have ideas all the time. You are one of the people that, when I think of somebody who’s churning ideas, it’s definitely you, Valerie.

Valerie:
I don’t know. Thank you.

Alison:
And you decided that you were going to publish this book for teachers, and I just wonder: what did that path look like? Is that something that you sought out doing? Did someone come to you knowing your background and, you know, the type of books that you’re writing, um, because I’m sure that there are some people who are also interested in, like, if I’m an educator, how might this be a part of my path, too.

Valerie:
Exactly. So, it’s really interesting that when I first–maybe it’s not that interesting, it’s probably not that surprising–when I tell you what it is, but when I first started writing for children, knowing nothing in 2017, and I said, oh, I’m writing picture books, or I’m trying to write picture books. Of course, many people said, will you ever write for adults? Will you ever write for adults? And I said, nope, and then I said, well, if I wrote for teachers, I said I could write books for teachers, but not right now, I’m not really looking to do that, but I knew that it wouldn’t be a memoir, it wouldn’t be a novel or anything like that.

So, at the time, I actually, um, opened a folder on my computer, and two documents were in there, they’re still there, where I wrote ideas for what those two books would be. And I actually outlined it, and you knew the number of chapters, chapter titles, and some notes under each chapter.

So, fast forward to, um, 2023, I was at NCTE, National Council for Teachers of English, the annual convention. It was held in Columbus, Ohio that year. And I was there, I was on two panels, one that I had done with other writers, and one that my, Chronicle had set up for me. So, you know, had a great time, left, nothing had happened. A month later, it was in December, . I got a very lovely email that came to the inbox of my author email, so through my contact page, from an editor, uh, at Stenhouse. Who said, you know, “I attended your panel,” and she described it, it was the Chronicle panel. And she was very laudatory in her comments, and said, you know, “I just wonder if you’ve ever thought about writing for teachers, and if so, I’d love to have a conversation.”

You know, no pressure, whatever. And, you know, it was so interesting. I did set up a Zoom with her, and as soon as I saw her face in the Zoom screen, I recognized that face in the audience, from the audience. She had been smiling and nodding throughout the entire presentation, panel presentation, and I was just like, wow, that’s…That’s right, yeah, hearts. It really was just so special. So we talked, and I really wasn’t sure, in all honesty.

I mean, my shortest book is 30 words, my longest is maybe 700, my, uh, you know, my picture book biography that comes out, um, next month. So I’m thinking 30,000 words? How can I write 30,000 words? But it was truly collaborative. She was there with me every step of the way. She’s incredible, she’s actually become a friend, so I am now in the process of writing Book 2 with Pam Courtney, who is also a Highlights person, many of you know Pam. And I am also working on a proposal for Book 3 that I’m doing on my own, uh, because I have a residency next month, and I needed something to dig my teeth into. And unfortunately, I don’t have a kidlit project right now that’s going to keep me busy enough, so that’s a long answer, but that’s the story.

Alison:
Yeah, I think, and, you know, we’ll get into this a little bit more, but it’s, um… maybe not the, the same path that, you know, you’re thinking of sending things out and sending things out with your children’s books, maybe, and the way that we come upon writing for teachers might be different. I love, though, that you knew right away: Will I write for adults? And you were like, well, if those adults are teachers, I’ll be doing it.

Valerie:
Yes.

Alison:
I do, so I, I wanted to ask you just one or two more questions, Valerie. We’re going to bring Diana in, and then, you know, we’ll both come together, but, I, what I loved about both of your books is that I can hear the voice of both of you, so we talk about voice when we’re talking about, you know, our fiction writing or your nonfiction writing. We talk about that. And the thought about being an educator, hearing from an educator, when you’re reading a book was so, and for me, Valerie, it started with the dedication, and I’m just gonna…

Maybe… I don’t know what it feels like to have your words read back to you, but I wanted to share your dedication, and then just one or two more lines from, um, your book, which is called Goal Setting in the Writing Classroom. So this is a really, there it is, and beautiful cover, too, and the interior’s beautiful, it’s, it’s really, it’s a really narrow focus in your writing classroom, I think. Really thinking about goal setting, but, really, what you want to do is this empowerment of students.

However, when you open the book, it starts with your dedication, and your dedication is to the teachers, and just knowing you, and knowing that. It says: For the teachers who’ve achieved their goals, and for those of you who are working hard to achieve them, for the teachers who write alongside their students. And for those who may, after reading this book, commit to writing more” and then it goes on a little bit, but that phrase, that “alongside,” when I got to that, that’s the major bridge that I saw between your book and Diana’s book, and really thinking about some of the books as an educator that really change you sre those things where, the, the the pedagogy is, like, putting you right next to the students again. Reminding you how important that relationship is and that respect is, and for you to say, you know, those who are writing alongside, and those who might commit to doing it even more.

And so some people here aren’t educators, but they, too, might be thinking about that alongside what does that really mean? And then later in your book, you talk about a classroom environment, and you said: “This is a classroom environment where everyone learns together, they share with one another, they encourage one another, they celebrate one another’s…They add goal setting to the repertoire. It’s a smart instructional move. In addition to helping students set goals, monitor progress, and celebrate their achievements, you will set your own goals. You are learning alongside your students. And serving as a model for them.”

And my background through the National Writing Project was really that. It was the idea of being that model, and that it doesn’t have to look like your work. But by you talking through the process, kids can see themselves as part of the process, too. And I love that, because you kept going back again and again in this book, Valerie, to considering what kind of writer your student actually wants to be. It said, yes, you’re going to become a writer, and you’re going to write alongside them, and that’s what kind of writer you are. And then you’re gonna think about your students, and think about what kind of writer they want to be. And it might not have to be the same thing. And I just, I loved that.

What do you think this, like, knowing our group that’s gathered here tonight, what, what do you think that space allows for? That kind of, alongside, or, like, allowing for space for students to decide what kind of writers they want to be? And why was that important in a book about goal setting? We think about, like, smart goals, and you know, you go to the teacher in service, and you’re like, they’re gonna do this, and then by month two, they’re gonna do this, but your book is a very different approach to goal setting when it comes to writing. So maybe you could talk a little bit about that.

Valerie:
Sure, I just believe that children really need to have choice in certain things. You know, yes, choice within, you know, there can be boundaries and so forth. Just as there are even for us, but you want to, the only way we feel empowered, and we learn to think critically, is we have to make decisions. If all the decisions are made for us, we don’t become critical thinkers. And so, the idea is that in my classroom, students knew we were going to write, we, you know, wrote every day, and, but what you write is often up to you. Now, there is always a curriculum that has to be followed. So let’s say we’re working on narrative writing, but even within that, you get to decide your topic. And even once you have a draft, and you’re getting feedback from peers or from me, you decide what you want to implement or not implement, and I, … there’s even, um, one of the, there are a number of… forms in the book, and one of them is a feedback implementation form, and students will take notes on the feedback they’ve received, and then they jot down “hat do I want to actually implement? What might I save for later?” Um, and some of it they won’t implement.

So, I just think, just as we, especially those who are writers here, we want ownership over our writing, students deserve that as well. Um, and I do just want to say something about the writing alongside. And I feel it’s so important to be a model for students. You may be afraid, you may feel you’re not the best writer, but if you’re asking students to do something, you should do that as well. Um… You can, they would love to see your writing. I used to write, sometimes I would take a few minutes in the class when they were writing or jotting, and I would do some writing right then and there.

Or you can do writing if it’s something that would take more time, do writing outside of the class and share it. Now, I’m going to say something, which I realize in retrospect, I should not have done this. It was really, um, probably not appropriate and not professional, but it was my first year. Teaching 8th grade when the students, um, were taking the state tests, and I had been preparing them for right, you know, the writing part in particular. So, when they took the writing test, I took it. Now, I did, every now and then, I was looking up, and there were several times I would get up still and walk around, so I was interrupting my writing to proctor, but I really felt like: “I want to see what this is like. Am I able to write this essay in 45 minutes? What is it like? How does it feel? All of that.”

I know, like, now, I wouldn’t do it. I could probably get into a lot of trouble for it, but I just think, you know, like, there’s something to be said for that.

I’m gonna put my, I’m gonna say one more thing and put my husband on blast. He has been teaching for years and years, probably, you know, 20 years he’s been teaching American History, it’s taught to sophomores. And every year, they have to write a sophomore research paper, and I have been telling him, you need to go through the actual process. You should write a paper, see what it’s like for your students, then you can also use parts of your paper to model for them. I just think it’s so worthwhile. I think sometimes adults, too, even outside of writing, we ask children to do things, we expect them to do things, or ask them to act in certain ways, and we don’t do it ourselves. And I just, um… I just think that’s something we should all think about.

Alison:
I love that we got that bit of information from you there. There were a lot of people sending emojis into the air with that one, um, and thinking about it, because yeah, I mean, we, we want to know, one, there’s part of writing with kids, um. I think about test taking as its own genre, right? So, just like you’re writing your personal narrative alongside the kids, when it comes to test taking, that’s a genre all unto itself, and so you’re, like, just seeing, you know, what you have there. I’m sure you passed. I’m sure that you did. You were proficient.

Valerie:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes.

Alison:
Or, you know, advanced, whatever that might be, yeah. I love that. I also love, and this is kind of connecting me here, back to, um, Diana, but you started byy talking about this whole idea of, you know, giving agency to the kids. One, we hear that all the time when we’re writing for kids, and this is writing with kids, and you’re saying, here, look at this intersection. Agency is important in both cases, right? And then you said, because you’re trying to teach kids how to think critically, you’re not just asking them to do it, but you’re saying, you know, that think aloud, like, and sometimes you need a plan, and sometimes you need to set those goals, and goals can be flexible, and here’s what happens when things go in different directions.

So you’re giving that critical piece, because you’re teaching them a part of the process that oftentimes isn’t taught. The directions might be given. But the process itself and the connecting to your self, those goals aren’t always given, and I think there’s real, I don’t know, there’s, the agency was the word I was thinking of, but there, there’s, like, this, um, self-awareness that’s also part of that. And Diana, of course, that makes me think of your, your transition into writing for teachers as well. So your book is about universal design for teachers, and very importantly, it’s anti-oppressive.

Universal design for teachers, and I thought maybe we could kind of flow in the same direction that we just did with Valerie, and look at, like, how did that come into your writing life? And, you know, what was the process?

Valerie was talking about kind of being approached after one of these sessions, you know, at NCTE, which is amazing, um, and for you. why was creating this book an important piece to add to the stories that you’re creating right now?

Diana:
That’s a great question. Before I answer it, I was wondering if I could share my own teacher story, which is very different from Valerie’s. So, Valerie announced in second grade, “I want to be a teacher.” I, both my parents were teachers, so I had a father who was a middle school math teacher and a mother who was middle school and high school multi-language, learner or teacher.

And so, I saw what their lives were like. I saw the constant grading, the wrestling with the discipline, the inability to bring their full selves into the classroom. As immigrant, as immigrant teachers who are constantly thinking about language themselves and their use of language, and how they were seen. And I vowed I would never be a teacher. There was no way I was ever going to be a teacher.

And then in graduate school, I taught my first class. And I realized that, yes, all of those things that kept me from wanting to be a teacher were still there. But that connection with the student. The ability to say: “your story, your writing, your voice matters.” And seeing a student just open up to that possibility was transformative for me. Also, I read, um, Bell Hook’s book, Teaching to Transgress, and that changed my idea of what a teacher could be. However, my first year of teaching high school, I came in all idealistic. And I said, “call me Diana.” And I know some of the teachers are gonna, like, go like, I don’t know! And I realized that might work for a white male, but a young Asian woman coming into the classroom and saying, “call me Diana, I just want to be there with you, and support you.”

I was read as a pushover. So, I didn’t know how to bring my full self into the classroom as a teacher. And, I, as I learned along the way, I realized I was, just had this realization that the books I write, I’m particularly, I’m thinking about Rainbow Fair, my middle grade book. My teachers are kind of villains. They’re, They’re enforcing a status quo, for example, Rainbow Fair, there is a rule that the Rainbow Fair, the cultural fair that this middle school has, you can only be in one booth, in one identity. And this forms the main conflict for my main character, who is both Chinese and Muslim, and she has to choose between the booths.

And her best friend, Katie, who is bisexual and Chinese, so she has to choose between the booths. So, neither of them end up choosing the Chinese booth. But for Sophie, my main character, she’s dealing with her assumption of her parents’ expectation that she still does a Chinese booth, so she’s sneaking around, trying to do both booths. And it is a not-so-subtle metaphor about how, how young people have a much better understanding of intersectionality than I think many times adults do, and how adults try to partition students and young people into boxes of identities.

So, when I realized that I was constantly writing villainous teachers–they weren’t bad people, right? They were, teachers who didn’t know that there was another way. And so, it was really important for me to discover another way in my own teaching as well.

And I want to take you back to, um, now I’m getting to your question, Alison, which is, how did I get into this book? And I want to take you into Spring 2020. When everything went virtual. So, I was teaching virtually, my children, I had one kindergartner and one fifth grader were, learning virtually. And I had, um, I had no, no room in the house where I could close the door, so I had a green screen up, and when I say a green screen, I mean it was this jury-ragged sheet of green; I bought a sheet online and hung it from the wall. And tried to create this partition, and it was very flimsy. It was on a wall, it was on a stand.

And so, every day when I would have a meeting, or when I was trying to teach, I was just hoping that my kid was fully dressed. That my kid was not going to run across and hit the green screen, make it fall over onto me, which it did once. Or hit me with a noodle, which also he did, just to get my attention.

And so, as I was doing this, I was feeling very, very overwhelmed, and yet we were as schools, falling into the same regressive patterns that we had always been in. I heard one student who during gym time, had to get into their gym clothes. So, we were still having, you know, 6 periods a day, gym,all virtual, it wasn’t working for the students, it wasn’t working for the teachers.

And as I was sitting there, crouched under a sheet, hoping that my children were fully dressed, I was thinking, there has to be a better way! And so, when I wrote this book, I was taking all my years of commitment to social justice and equity and anti-oppressive teaching, and thinking about how do we not just break down the racist, the racist, ableist, heterosexist barriers that confront students, But how do we create something new? Because we can’t just tear down, we have to create something new, and we have to create a new design that is accessible for, for everyone.

So that was how Anti-Oppressive Universal Design came into being. And I actually saw a call for proposals from the Equity and Social Justice series, and, um, and that was when I proposed this book.

Alison:
Process-wise, I mean, I feel like you’ve had just a ton of fiction coming out as well. Like, you ended up during that same time, getting a number of contracts for writing for kids, right? Um, and then this. How did, how did that process work together? Did you feel you could work on those projects at the same time, or was it very different parts of your brain and the way that you were kind of putting things together?

Diana:
Oh, it was very different. I found myself longing for character development and a plot, like, any plot. And oddly, however, I found that my, my fiction writing, my storytelling skills served this book well. One of the things my editor kept telling me was: “use your storytelling skills. Make this come alive.” And it’s true, none of us want to be told what to do. So, I was very clear in this book that I’m not giving another prescriptive framework that I expect teachers to follow. I say over and over again, this might not work for you. That’s fine. This is to support you in developing your own teaching, your own framework.

So, I tell stories of what worked for me. I tell stories of how I have failed. I promise teachers that I’m not going to ask them to take on a journey. That I am not prepared to go with them. And I am very open, that this was the framework I needed to make teaching sustainable for me. That, that first failure years ago, when I, … my mistake was not: I need to be more rigid, I need to be more strict, I need more rules or regulation. My mistake was that I was not bringing my full self into the classroom and making that transparent, and saying, this is who I am to my students, this is what I need. And I am here for who you are and what you need as well.

So, I basically have 4 principles. Of multiplicity, flexible design, equity, and humanizing pedagogy. And I say, these are, these are my four principles, but what you as a teacher design with these four principles are going to be potentially different from what I have designed.

Alison:
I think, um, in hearing your, I don’t know, if path is the right word, but hearing how the book came together, that history, and even the advice from your editor about using the power of your storytelling, I think that that’s what was, was very apparent in the book, there, there are things that you use as a storyteller, because there was a distinct structure to this book, right? And, you know, that must have been a part of the process, deciding on that structure.

And how you could give the power over, or the agency over to the readers, too, and the readers are teachers, and you wanted to, you know, give that to them. I loved hearing your voice. I mentioned both you and Valerie, but I loved hearing your voice in the book while I was reading it, and there was a lot of “I”, there was a lot of you, you know, that first person putting yourself right in there.

On page 11, I’m just gonna read this, because I think it, it encapsulates you just encapsulated what you wanted to do for the teachers as they read it, and I think this encapsulates what you hope for the students after the teachers have kind of designed what they feel. She said: “I do not think of my students as deficient, nor do I think of enforcing conformity as my goal. However, the machine does not take into account our individual beliefs and goals. It simply grinds on. Mindlessly fulfilling its function to chip away differences as if they were deficits. These well-meaning initiatives come from the oppresstive ideaology that students need to be fixed in order to fit into the dominant society. In other words, they are meant to help students better fit the machine.”

And I think, um… maybe horror’s not the right word, but, like, your horror of the thought of that machine being what’s guiding our educational, like, I picture you in this blanket as these thoughts are coming together. Because there is so much concern, there’s concern for all the seeds you’re planting with students so that they can grow.

I think one of the things that comes across, especially now, you’re using the term “oppressive ideology,” right? And just having the term “oppression” in it, I, I wonder what it feels like to talk about that term in today’s climate, whether you’re talking about it as you’re molding new teachers, or, I’ve seen you teach a lot, I’ve seen you teach writers an awful lot, and these are writers who are going to go out and do for kids. They’re going to work for kids and write for kids.

And so I wonder, like, how does that fit together? What does this mean? This ideology of fixing when it comes to children? How does that influence you in the classroom, and how does that influence you as a teacher of writing? I guess that would be my main question.

Diana:
Great question. Um… And thank you for reading that passage. I very much believe that is an important passage, partly because. That piece where it says, says “well-meaning initiatives,” and the piece that came right before that was, “I used to think some of these initiatives were great,” or something along those lines. And it is a painful realization and I had a lot of grief around it when I realized that I had reinforced some of those initiatives of grit, perseverance, back to basics. These are well-meaning initiatives, and I thought, oh, I want to help students! These initiatives are going to help students.

Until I realized this is all part of the machine, grinding down differences, treating those differences as if they were deficits. So, it was a shift, and a very necessary shift, to see students, and students’ writing, not as “how do I fix students’ writings so that, that writing conforms to my expectations? Because when I say my expectations, I mean the machine’s expectations, which are normed on white, cis het, ableist expectations and norms.

So it is a very important shift to remove all thoughts of teaching being removing of deficits. Instead, teaching of writing should be centering what the student wants, the student’s vision. And how to help the student reach their own vision, giving them a lot of what Valerie was saying, right? Creating ownership in the students’ work. I don’t own this work. I don’t want to mold it into something that I think has value. Instead. I need to understand what the student values in their own learning, and my job is to help them learn that.

So, my job is not to create better workers under a capitalistic system. My job is to empower students to find joy in their own learning and their own writing.

Alison:
I mean, you can definitely see how two completely different approaches to writing books for educators right now, which is great. We have a lot of educators who have joined us tonight, and their ideas; there’s room at the table, right? Their ideas are are totally different. Yet, the two of you are, like, trying to help create a thoughtful society. You believe that. The way that you establish a classroom, the way that you establish whether it’s goals or self, the thought of self, matters when. The kids are going to leave your classroom. And I think that becomes a really beautiful part, you know, Valerie, maybe you feel this way now, too. Again, the teaching doesn’t leave you, even when you leave the classroom.

But when you get to go back in, when you get to go into a school visit, or you go to a library, and you’re there with kids making sure that the space isn’t prescribed for what you want to accomplish. The space is open for them to be a part of it as well.

And so, maybe before we get to some questions that have come in, and I notice that there’s questions that are both in the chat and in the Q&A, so I’m, I’m writing down some of them from the chat so we can pull them in as well. I, I, I think that we might have people who are on the call who aren’t interested in writing anything academic at all.

I actually saw a couple people note it was the word “with” that really made me excited about this panel. And so, you know, this is, these are people who want to create something authentic for kids, they want to help kids today navigate, you know, probably want to give kids agency and, you know, help them with thinking.

Can the two of you talk just a little bit about, kind of, your understanding of this? Valerie, whether it’s goal setting, you know, for you, or this anti-oppressive design, Diana, for you. What do these have to do with writing with kids, for somebody who is not going to pick up your book as an educator. They’re not going to go in and teach it, there, that’s not what they’re doing. They’re writing with kids because it’s somewhere they want to go, it’s something that they want to do.

Diana, maybe you could start us off. What does it have to do with our writers that have gathered.

Diana:
Yeah, I feel that one of the joys of being a writer for kids is getting to talk to kids. I know that I love that, and so I think that every time we do a school visit, every time we go into a classroom thinking about: this is an opportunity to inspire a, a child with what writing can do, the joy of writing. Oftentimes, and, I don’t, I don’t want to say that this, um, happens a lot, but sometimes, sometimes, the writing classroom is a place that children and students dread because it is about correctness. It is about, it is about do you have your, commas in the right place are, are you using APA style, or, you know, things like that, Tthat I don’t actually find all that interesting or inspiring, so how do I expect–and I’ve written an academic book, so how do I expect–students to find that interesting or inspiring?

So, to have a writer who takes joy in that creativity coming into the classroom is a very special thing. So, in, I think what I would say to writers is: “bring that joy in there. Bbring the value of writing into the classroom.” I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had a student say “I didn’t think it was possible to be a writer until I met one who, who was passionate about this.”

And also, I will have to say that it took me a long time to lean into being a writer. I didn’t think I could write. I didn’t think I could be an author. Because I didn’t see authors who look like me. So we didn’t have authors visit the classroom. We definitely did not have BIPOC authors visit the classroom when I was growing up. So, I think it’s really important to, especially right now, I have to say this: AI is the bane of my existence. And I believe it is happening with so many students, turning in AI-generated content. Because no one has said to them: your own writing has value. It is also joyous to create. Don’t let anyone take that from you.

So, I think we as authors going into the classroom talking to children have a responsibility to say: Fight for your joy! Don’t let a machine take it away from you!

Alison:
Oh, fight for your joy. Love it. That’s beautiful, Diana. Valerie, what about you? Maybe advice is the right word, or, you know, just maybe, some thoughts about those who are not going to be doing a teacher book, but they definitely want to write with kids, because they’re writing for kids.

Oh, you’re muted.

Valerie:
I want to be sure I understand the question, are you asking about writing with kids, or writing for kids?

Alison:
Yeah, I think the benefit of, somebody who is writing for kids.

Valerie:
Right, that’s what I think.

Alison:
What, what, what would the benefit be about, kind of, understanding this, the philosophies that both you and Diana have talked about tonight?

Valerie:
Great, that’s what I thought, thank you. So I think I’ll actually start with Diana’s book, if you don’t mind me saying something about uours, Diana. I think, you know, in terms of what you can take from Diana’s book, and even the things she said tonight, are, you know, think about who you’re writing for, and that there are many different types of children. And while you may write from your experience, which you should, somehow leave space for these other voices, and even if, and I’m not saying, you know, white people write someone who’s black or Asian, that’s not what I’m saying. But if you are writing a novel, maybe there is a space for a secondary character, or if you are writing a picture book, maybe there, you know, there should be different kids in the illustration.

So think about, think about things like that, because we do want, children to feel represented, and if there’s a particular story you have to tell, and a particular background of yours, I would say definitely consider that when you’re writing, because there are going to be children ho need that. They need that from you.

And in terms of my book and some of these things I’ve talked about before, about really believing in choice and agency. I mean, the subtitle of the book is Building Student Agency Independence and Success. So, as you’re writing, think about, I know we do talk about character agency, but there really is truth to that. The more the young person can come up with her, his, or their own ideas, the more, even if maybe the child doesn’t get it right away, there can be tries and fails. But have the child really discover that. As I said, children are smart, and they can do things, and for the child reader, it benefits the child reader to see that a child is able to do and accomplish certain things. And that it’s not an adult or even an older sibling, or even another character who’s not the main character, who has to do it for them.

So I think when you keep those things in mind, again, the agency, and then w have independence, and again, I think the more students are independent, and you’re writing allows space for independent thinking, you also have great discussions. You know, leave space.

You know, we often talk, at least for picture book writers, we talk about leave space for the illustrator. That’s true. I would say for picture books and beyond, leave space for the discussion. I mean, as you’re writing, think about what the audience is that you’re writing for and what might they want to discuss? I mean, I just finished reading, um, a YA novel called The Love Match with my 13-year-old niece, and we had our own little mini book group, and my husband, we were FaceTiming, and he was listening to the discussion, and he was so impressed by everything she was saying and asking. And, you know, she’s a smart girl, but, it just, but the book also allowed for that. It had so many different storylines and situations to think about and to discuss. So, it made it, it made it possible for us to have those discussions. So I would say, think about those things as you’re writing for children.

Alison:
No, I love that, that, the piece of, I mean, again, it’s connecting back to thinking, like, you’re trusting the thought process. And you’re allowing space for that, and I just think That’s so beautiful. We’re going to try and do just a few questions, and then we’ll be wrapping things up for tonight, but, Diana and Valerie, thank you so much.

There are more questions between the chat and the Q&A than we’ll be able to answer tonight, and what we’ll try and do is when we do the blog recap of tonight’s session, we’ll try and add some information in there. One that I think should be pretty quick to do: Diana, we’ve been asked to have you please recite your four principles again, so that, so that we can, we can get those written down.

Diana:
Of course. They are multiplicity, flexible design, equity, and humanizing pedagogy.

Alison:
Great, thanks.

Diana:
And I believe they’re also in the book description, so they should be there.

Alison:
That’s great. So I’m gonna go with, um, one that’s kind of, uh, culmination of several questions that have come up, and one that’s a little bit more direct. The two of you could speak to it again. How do educators begin writing for educational companies, not,like, Stenhouse was mentioned, but it can be, you know, others. Valerie, you were approached, but that’s not the only direction there, and Diana, you saw a call for…but do you have any experience about people who don’t see a call for specific submissions, or someone who isn’t approached. Do you have any background on either?

Valerie:
Diana, feel free.

Diana:
Yeah, I was going to say, even if you don’t see a specific call for proposals, um, most educational publishers…for example, both Valerie and I are published by Rutledge, different imprints through Rutledge. But Rutledge has a submission process. I actually applied–or not applied, I guess that’s the wrong word–I proposed to several publishers. And Rutledge was my dream one, so I was really excited when they, when they signed a contract with me. So, they have very specific guidelines for how to formulate your proposal.

And I will also say that it was a process like none I had ever gone through before. And, in fact, I remember I was at Highlights struggling with the process. I’m just going to say this, Alison. When I happened to have, I came down to breakfast, Alison and Autumn Allen were there, and Alison asked, so, how’s your academic book proposal going? And I’m like…so talking over that process with Alison and Autumn ended up being invaluable.

Alison:
Well, that’s great, and I think educators who talk to educators and writers who attend things, Valerie, like the American Library Association or National Council of Teachers of English when you’re at the exhibit hall, going up and seeing what’s already out there and talking to people on the floor, you know, and seeing what’s missing, you know, and things like that. But, Diana, very similarly to the way that we do research when it comes to submissions of work for kids, you can also look for work for educators as well.

So, this will be our closing… question and then we’ll do a little wrap-up here, but…this’ll be a hard one to distill into a short response, but just, whatever comes, so people are very grateful that you’ve had the conversation about that; the joy, and bringing joy into writing. The thought, the whole process behind it. Do you have any thoughts about elping kids through the, the grammar piece, perfectionist students, you know, state guidelines and things like that, while balancing this joy.

Valerie:
I can start with that one. I think, again, the more you honor students’ voices, the more you give them choice when you can, yes, they, you know, you may have state testing that you have to prepare students for, and you may not be able to make it so joyful, but that may be a week, or hopefully it’s not more than a week. I know some schools may be two weeks, but if you do other things in the midst of that, or if 90% of the time they’re getting to decide and so forth, I think that that’s really helpful.

One of the things with perfectionist students and students who struggle when you create your own writing goals, that really helps, but the perfectionist student can really dig in and challenge themselves more with a goal, and you can sort of be there coaching through that, that if you really want to do, you know, these things, and you may have to temper back a bit too, but I know I typically have them look at setting three writing goals. Two of them are what I call about the content or quality of the writing, and then one is aword study or grammar-related goal, but if you have a student where maybe two goals is as much as they should have, you can do that, and if you have a very motivated student, maybe that student will have four goals.

So there’s a lot of, you know, again, agency and opportunity for both of those types of students, and also because you are going to provide writing instruction, because you will have one-on-one conferences, because you will have small group instruction, you can have those. Small group instruction for both the students who are struggling, as well as those who need or want to be pushed further. So this model really allows, I think, for, you know, you to be able to address a variety of students. Or hopefully all students.

Alison:
Yeah, I think that’s great.

Diana:
One of the things I love about Valerie’s answer and her approach in her book is how concrete these strategies are, which is something I’ve also tried to do. So I was looking quickly, because I don’t actually have my titles memorized, but Chapter 3, Building Equitable Curriculum and Practices with Anti-Opressive Universal Design, specifically talks about how do we balance these restrictions of standards, curriculum standards and state standards, and still be able to design for freedom.

And one of the things that I talk about is not a subtraction. The principle “multiplicity” is really important. So you have all these state standards, but there’s nothing to say that you can’t add to it and say something like, so, for example, an outcome is joy of creation, if that’s important to you, you can add it, and there’s nothing at all that prevents you from doing it.

So, a lot of what I do with these principles is use them to expand the design of the classroom, the design of, um. Of what is possible. So, the discussion of how do we deal with perfectionism, one of the things that I tell students constantly is: “Do me a favor. When you run up against something that is hard, don’t assume the problem is with you. Always assume the problem is with the design of the classroom, because we can fix that. We, I am not interested in fixing you, because you don’t need to be fixed.”

So how do we fix the design of the classroom? And with perfectionism, sometimes it’s, okay, we need time in class to do the writing. And we’ll build in a day into the classroom, where you do your writing and when you’re done, if you want, you can hit Submit. Or, you can hold onto it, use this as a writing sprint, and turn it in later.

And that’s open to all students, so having multiplicity in the classroom is how I addressed the design, not the student.

Alison:
That’s great. Well, thank you both so much. I am gonna wrap things up tonight. We’re just a few minutes over. I appreciate those of you who have stayed on with us. I really love the work that the two of you are doing, both, you know, for and with kids. And I would suggest, you know, people have an opportunity to look up both books, even if they’re not educators, taking a look at these principles, because this is something that can help influence any of the times that you’re leaving space for kids to write and express themselves, which is needed now more than ever.

So thank you both so much, a special thanks to our Highlights Foundation team, which includes George and many other people who were in the chat. They make events like this one happen. And we really just couldn’t have a better crew. We’re pretty lucky when it comes to our crew here at the Highlights Foundation. I want to thank our audience. There were so, I can’t wait, Diana and Valerie, to send you the chat, because it was just, blowing with connections, and all for the two of you, so that you can see that.

I invite our audience to keep doing the good work that you’re doing. Keep making space for kids to tell their stories. It’s really, really important, and please take care of yourselves. And take good care of one another. Stay safe and have a good night. Thank you for being here. And goodnight.

Valerie:
Thank you all for coming.

Diana:
Thank you.

George:
Thanks, everybody.

Valerie:
And thanks, Alison, for being an incredible moderator!

Diana:
Yes, thank you.

Alison:
Yeah, good. Good night.